apartment therapy changing the world, one room at a time

sammie, I totally agree. with both your points.

Uh oh, my hopes that perfect poll panacea was provided on the chicago site were dashed by gretchen in her 20's who objects to being called an adult (and it seems her boyfriend in his 30's would object also).

SF site was no good either and LA didn't even bother - I guess they learnt from the failed experiences of the others.

What is a poll passionate person posed to do?

how about an option for
"want kids, but not yet!"

how about an option for

"No thnaks!"

ummm.... this sort of assumes that everyone wants one, has one or loves them. Keep them away from me and I'll be happy. I'd rather have a dog any day.

ditto red!

My answer would be more like: "All my same-age (40) friends are suddenly pregnant, and I'm thinking of wrapping myself in three layers of latex until menopause."

I do actually like specific children, specifically those of an age and temperament to appreciate building Lego studio apartments with elaborate wall graphics.

No kids and no desire to have them. Perhaps you guys should look at your demographic a bit more closely....

Ditto ditto Reef and red. No thanks.

Ditto red. There should be a "Don't really like kids" type option. I'm in the "want one someday" camp, but to make your survey accurate, you need to change it.

Right now, the survey pretty much has the same four answers.

Add me to the "No Thanks!" category.

Okay, I should admit I actually have an 11 month old. I can't wait until he's old enough to make sense and not just cry when he wants goodness knows what! I love him, but he makes no sense!

I want to hear about nursery designn and furniture, etc. I don't have a dining room and I like reading about that too. I work in design. I like to see what's what. On with the kids crap!

How about a "been there and done that" option. Not that you're ever really done.

No kids, and in most states, no rights to have them.

How 'bout a button for that?

I'm a parent of a 2 year old. I am for this month-long theme as long as it doesn't focus on "home is..." sugary-sweet pix of kids and stuff like that. What I really want to see is design ideas for kids rooms, how to integrate a child into a household where people care about design and don't want plastic Dora the Explorer toy kitchens taking up space in their living rooms. While we are at it, how about examples of REASONABLY priced children's furniture?

to assume in this day & age that everyone wants kids is pretty unenlightened

I don't think it's unenlightenment, Kat -- I think it's the glow of impending fatherhood.

That 'n' the childless-by-choice people are usually the first in line to say, "I really LOVE children, BUT..." The frankness here about not being into children surprises me (and limits my ability to shock with my own attitude, darn it!).

The "No Thanks" is a button that has to be added.

Definitely don't want kids, and I would not say that I love them. I like some children, but certainly not all.

no kids for me.

I don't call myself childless-by-choice, I call myself childfree. I agree with Kat that it's unenlightened to assume people should all love or want children. That's a bit of an old-fashioned notion, like assuming everybody wants to get married.
I don't say "I Love children but I'm not planning on having them." In fact, I rarely mention children at all. If somebody asks if I'm planning on having them I just say No. If you say it firmly enough, sometimes people don't question it. When they do, my response of "I don't really like children" generally shuts them up. If they continue to ask why, I say "Frankly, you're not making it look like much fun."

How about kids that come with spouse?

nothing better than kids. if they're your own. other peoples' kids can get annoying pretty quick. hopefully those with children and have good taste can pass there sense of style (or desire for good design) on to future generations. and hopefully if you have horrible taste and an awful eye for design you are one of those that never plan on having children so we don't have to see your ugly choices passed on :)

I'm with Jessica, I may not be that young, but I'm still not done being a kid yet (let alone take care of some).

Oh dear ... a month of design for kids?!! ugh.
I love my cat but a month of pet design was well over the top.
Since I am in the "no thanks" camp when it comes to kids - it looks like I will be avoiding AT for that month. sigh - now i need to find another way to waste time at the office.

No kids by choice and am kind of dreading the theme this month but there are plenty who will get a lot out of it and I'm sure it'll be good. Besides, there are only 30 days in September - it could have been worse...it could have been October ;)

In addition to not dealing with those who don't want kids at all, the survey doesn't really account for the possibility of readers with more than one kid...surely the site isn't so single-centric that having a more than three-person family is an impossibility??

i'm with jessica and mat.

i hit the button for 'hoping', but that would more accurately mean something like "hoping that in another 5 years or so i can get my shit together enough to make that happen."

also, i don't really see what issue people have with 'love kids, but no.' i mean, do all of you really and truly HATE children? i know plenty of people who don't want kids, who can't/don't want to see past the poop and drool, who feel uncomfortable around them. but are the feelings so strong that you can't in good conscience check a box that says you like kids ok but don't see fit to have your own?

agree with most of the above, pretty poor excuse for a survey. i don't particularly like kids at the moment, but it is entirely possible that once i settle down a little i'll end up with a couple.

No kids, and don't want 'em.

It seems logical to me that many people who are interested in furnishing their small apartments might not be having kids. Not an iron-clad rule, but a tendency.

I'll have to vote with P(too) on this one. Not that I have anything against them.

Add another vote for a "No Thanks" button.

While it is probably a good thing that other people love kids, I have never felt the paternal desire to have them. Being the youngest one in my entire extended family growing up, I have never been around them. I don't understand them, they seem like foreign objects to me.

I couldn't even answer the survey, because I don't love children - any more than I love adults, which is to say I take 'em all on an individual basis. I'm relieved to see other childfree people leaving comments. My answer would simply be: don't want 'em, don't got 'em. That's all childfree (as opposed to child-less) means. It doesn't mean I hate children, and it shouldn't be such a huge threat to child-lovers, child-wanters, and parents that some of us just aren't into kids.

I' with Helen. I refer to my husband and I as Childfree By Choice. I'm just not wired that way. When I was a kid and my mother would say, "One day you will have kids of your own", I would think to myself, "Shit". What a relief to finally realize I have a choice. Bless those who have children by choice, for they make the better parent!

I made it through Pet Month and lived--even though I will never have a pet. I doubt that childfree AT readers will melt if there's a Kiddie Month.

Trust me, guys, on another message board I frequent, to have an option like "Don't like kids" would cause WWIII. Maxwell gave a diplomatic way to say you don't want them without saying something incendiary.

I'm with several other posters, especially P2 & jimkk. Not sure about the chicken-and-egg effect that has on my generally not being too crazy about children, especially when they're loud in an airplane or a train.

I don't think anybody was specifically asking for an option that says "Don't Like Kids." Rather, I think issue was taking with the phrasing "Love them but..." Why couldn't it just say "Don't want children?" Childfree people shouldn't have to make any excuses or justify their reasoning. People who want kids aren't expected to explain why they want them. People who don't want kids shouldn't be expected to explain why they don't, including whether or not they like them.

People love to answer surveys don't they?
And they love to make a big deal about not being able to answer them. What is it about surveys that brings everyone out of the woodwork? Or is this simply a good place to vent about not liking children?

I find this whole thread so funny. Someone mentioned pet month which is something that does not interest me in the slightest but I don't recall anyone voicing negative opinions about pets - at least not en masse.

Amanda I am in complete agreement with you. thanks for articulating so well.

What, no "dressed in tiny clown suits and buried in the crawlspace" option?

If pet month was going to happen regardless of protests, and kid month is going to also, then why does it matter that ppl who do not want kids say so or not?

Surely if a subject is going to be featured then seeing how many ppl have an interest in it and to what extent (expecting, how old) is relevant but those not interested is not. Unless, of course, Maxwell is going to have a referendum on each and every topic that he wants to blog about. If that happens then we do need ppl to voice their objections.

Well to go with the flow here is my opinion:
I do have toddlers but am not looking forward to a whole month of kid related posts (though I know that all sorts of other topics will be covered as usual) mainly because of the negativity that usually results (this thread is a case in point) but also because I would much rather see good design period rather than design specifically geared to kids - or pets for that matter.

i didn't see the phrasing "love kids, but don't plan on it" as being a requirement that childfree people should have to make excuses or justify their choices. to me, it says, "i like kids and all, but i don't want to have any." and i don't see what issue the childfree gang has with this. unless they specifically dislike children so much that it would be a bald-faced lie to say "love kids, but..."

i also don't see how valuable it would be to have a different option for "omigod, i hate children with a passion! they're noisy and they stink and i would rather rip my reproductive organs out with my bare hands than bring any into the world!!!!!!!!!" either you want kids or you don't. i think there is a middle ground on the issue that p2 et al have brought to light, as well as wanting them but not being there yet. but dude, why do we have to have like 5 different variations on "no, thanks"?

It won't be the no-kids-for-me faction that'll be hostile in the product-specific posts... it'll be the clash of different styles of child-rearing.

Just looking at the first couple examples of products, I see that if I happened to sprain both wrists and be unable to type for a month, this would probably be a good thing. Alas, I'll have to rely on self-restraint.

amanda said it best:
"People who want kids aren't expected to explain why they want them. People who don't want kids shouldn't be expected to explain why they don't, including whether or not they like them."

have friends with a darling 16 month old, but after i visit, she doesn't come with me. love her, but no thanks.

other kids... generally, brats.

though i feel the same way about my friend adam's dog, roxy. love her, not for me (right now at least), and other ones are generally brats.

Opoponax, if you were a vegetarian on a healthy-eating site, and the only non-meat-eating response was "Love meat, but not planning on eating any," would that fit your comfort zone? Or would you be kind of irritated that it's assumed *everyone* really wants a good steak?

Or say you're gay... "Love sex with the other gender, but am sticking to my own right now"?

A single "no thanks" would have been an excellent option, since it carries no baggage about the reasons behind the no.

Y'all are a cranky lot. Well some of you, anyways.

Haven't you noticed that Maxwell and company use a (refreshingly) postive way to describe the gamut of human desires, experiences, preferences?

It would be very un-Maxwell to have a poll option that stated: I HATE KIDS. ALL MY PARTNERS HAVE VASECTOMIES/HYSTERECTOMIES.

The pet month thing got *so* tired so fast (and I have known and loved many pets of many species over the years). What about a kid-themed *week*?

I'm on the downslide of 40 and am a single parent of a 7-year-old who either confirms my deepest doubts and fears (because I can be such a lame-o mommy) or who inspires blooms of extraordinary contentment and joy (because the bond really is unlike any I've known before). It's exhausting and often a pain in the ass, and mine is mannered and well-behaved. I liked my life before I was a parent but I don't recall it in much detail (except that I liked it) and what I have now is so full and rich that even in the worst moments (and don't let anyone fool you that those moments don't frequently outnumber the magical moments) I wouldn't trade it or go back or change anything. Except maybe I'd find more patience and more energy.

But the kidless folk in the world: bravo to you. Anyone who would judge you harshly can go screw themselves. I've never understood the romanticism of parenthood and of children. It's a lot of hard work and we mess up such a lot of it.

Okay. Rant over. Design question: why do so many designs of children's spaces segregate them into one part of the house? What about a home that integrates them so that everyone is equally welcome and comfortable in all spaces? Not to cutesify the livingroom, but why let them have all the fun stuff?

I'm not up for an entire month of kids. A few special posts, yes, but a month?... By the way, I'm in the "don't have kids and may never have 'em but who knows, I may decide I really want a kid one day" category.

How about a "Not interested in kid-oriented design" option?

Wende,

I do happen to have been vegetarian for many years(I currently eat fish), and I'd just click the "Love meat, but not planning on having any" and then I would comment politely that I'm a vegetarian. However, vegetarians are often not exactly well-received so I wouldn't go on a huge rant about why I chose not to eat meat and how much I hate meat. No one really wants to hear that, and in fact, I think it's counter-productive for "the cause." Just pointing that out...

Well, nothing inspires craziness in the comments section like kids. Just take that lady who decorated her nursery with wildcats a few months back. If kid month is going to be anything like the summer wildcat craziness -- I say let it rip!

Like I said, I don't see the point in having any kind of option that says you don't have or want kids. If kid month is going to happen anyway and we are not going to have a poll before a theme is suggested by Maxwell then what's the point?

BTW, I'm not particularly excited about Kid's Month, either, because Pet Month seemed really long (and I love both kids and pets) but some people will probably find it useful, so I'll just skip what I don't want to read, as I normally do.

Wow -- I have to say, I'm kind of taken aback by the anti-kid hostility on this thread. Of course, opting not to have kids is a valid and mature decision and one I totally respect (and yes, "no thanks" probably should have been a survey answer option).

But there are lots of apartment-therapy reading urban-dwellers out here who *do* have kids, and who are still interested in good design. Why do you have to make us feel like pariahs?

Way to be a community, folks.

P.S. As usual, the opoponax said it much more eloquently and elegantly (about the tendency to segregate children's spaces from the rest of the house) in the post under the "AT on...Whose Modern Home, Anyway" page (the one with the picture of a...[bleeeeh...!] BABY).

I actually don't have a problem with a month of special attention given to design for children/parents. A lot of people have kids and that surely affects how they set up their homes. And obviously that's going to be on Maxwel's mind a lot right now. If it really starts bothering me I can take a break and come back in October.

My only objection is the way the poll excludes the childfree, as if not unequivocably loooving children is such an unacceptable, shameful trait we shouldn't exist. Wende and amanda summed it up best. I agree that a simple "don't want children" would be appropriate. And JenPDX, you're really inventing offense where none exists; did you actually read the "cranky" posts you're overreacting to?

As happilyeverafter shows, it is possible for parents and childfree people to get along. Especially on a design blog! There are plenty of other places parents can attack childfree people and vice-versa.

eww, feet!

Sorry, I meant happilyever (and I'm one to talk about poor reading comprehension!).

But if this all about a kid themed month that is going to happen regardless of what ppl say then what relevance does finding out who is kidfree have?

Did we have a poll before pet month to find out who did not have pets? Does anyone care who does not have pets and the reasons why not?

You've stated your point. But the poll is up. And people like to take polls.

No one cares about who does and does not and does not want to have pets because it is not an issue fraught with emotional, sociological, and legal issues. And no one's ever had some one judge them as a lesser human being because they don't want a goldfish.

Thank you for addressing my point. At last!

But there are some scary assumptions about being judged being made that I was not privvy to before. Wow! Is that what some ppl really think of childfree ppl? If so then post away! Let this be the cathartic experience that you all crave.

And I actually being serious.

Jamie Pup, there *was* a poll at the beginning of pet month.
http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/ny/news/july-is-pet-month-010547

People complained that the options didn't fit their pet profile, though the "pets = animal oppression" posts don't show up until later in the month. (The thread ends up being mostly about litter boxes.)

The "no pets" option was not phrased as "love pets but don't have any." It was just "no pets."

Gawd, the can of worms opened by a moment of father-to-be enthusiasm. Speaking as part of the problem, I should really improve the community by going and working on something else. :-)

Still puzzled about the appeal of polls though. However, I don't need enlightenment on that subject thank you very much.

*blush*

Thanks wende for indulging me.
My disinterest in polls obviously prevented me from making an accurate statement but I still like anita's explanation.

Wow!I can not believe what I am reading! The hatred of children. I would be very alarmed to have my child around people like the ones posting. My word, if you do not want kids fine, but what's with all the hate of our little ones. Is this America? Be careful what you wish for. It would be interesting to know the ages of the posters. This is all alarming to me. I am hoping that most of the posters are not from NY. (The ones that "HATE CHILDREN")because, we heard that NY was a VERY child freindly place. I am looking forward to this upcoming children edition. I live in a 550 sq. ft. STUDIO with my husband and our three year old. Tell me that this would not benefit us! Our apartmnet style is mid-century modern/funky vintage and we would love all the ideas that we can take to incorporate our sons toys and accessories. I lived through pets and gardens which I do not have. Now, finally something so perfectly for us on AT that would truly be so beneficial.

I love kids and would love to find some ideas about where you can get a modern crib for under $500 that isn't ikea (did that, had to throw away). And David Netto? Tired. SO YAY!

I too found myself unable to answer this survey since I didn't like the phrasing - Oppo, I suspect you're still in your 20s? Get to be in your later 30s and you'll start to hear lovely comments from your friends like "Sure, you think it's fun hanging out with gay guys now, but I give you another year before it's "I want a BAA-by!"

That was an actual quote from an ostensibly progressive straight guy/father who lives in NYC. I usually find that women are more subtle about it, but tend to do things like volunteer you to babysit their children for free on weekend nights on a day's notice so they can go on "dates" with their husbands, and consider themselves to be doing you a favor because you got to spend time with a child. While you're certainly right that this shouldn't be a loaded issue, in today's society it certainly is!

Meanwhile, it's very interesting to me that this site is so overwhelmingly childless/free. Do people have less energy to care about design once they have kids? Or is it that most of them move to larger spaces so AT is less relevant? Any thoughts from people with or without kids would be appreciated!

Add my vote to the "No, thanks!" column.

I agree with Jamie Pup's comments all the way. the childfree stance is hard for me to get--I guess b/c I'm ttc my second.
I dont think childfree pple are ogres however

Personally, I'd like to see a poll on crime here on AT.

Ever committed a violent crime?
- Ooh yeah!
- Not Yet!
- Love 'em, but not for me.

(P.S. Kids? Me? No thanks.)

Last month, I couldn't partake/relate here on AT because we're pet free.

This month, I'm again at a loss for words on most of these posts because we do not have children. We just entered our thirties, so we're not exactly ready for them.

I love children, and I love pets, but neither would love us at this stage in our life.

We don't have time to give to babies/pets right now. We couldn't give them the love/care/attention that they deserve. We also aren't emotionally ready to make time. That may sound selfish, and frankly, it's okay because it is selfish - but in a positive way. We know our limitations (emotional, financial, career, etc.) and realize that having children right now would be very difficult in so many ways.

But we will be ready... But not this year, maybe not even next. Eventually though, yes.

For me, it's much like when I was single and not ready to get married. I wasn't against my friends doing it, but I wasn't ready and knew that, so I avoided relationships that ultimately wanted more. When I felt ready for more, I met my husband and we married 2.5 years later. We've been married now for 5 years and our marriage is solid, happy, and still in the honeymoon phase. We hold hands constantly. We are deeply madly in love. I think this is all due to being mature enough to marry when we felt ready, prepared in all areas of life, and ready to share what we had harvested in life with another person, one person.

When both my husband and I feel like we're ready for children, we'll happily start a family. I want to add that although I can't relate, I'm happy that AT dedicates a month to children and those who have them because parents work very hard and lead complicated lives, I think they should be respected and given their own month of clean modern design solutions.

Maxwell will be a daddy soon as will many other AT readers, so I understand that not everyone is on the same page as I am. I have no problem sitting through kid month. Maybe I'll learn a thing or two for my clients and friends.

Holly

I am with the group that probably wants kids in the future, but not at this time. There didn't seem to be an option for that in the survey.

I don't mind the idea of baby/kid month, however. I find that alot of "kid" designs and furniture actually can have broader application.

I'm childfree and I've been following these responses. I'm not sure what VIVI is referring to with the "hatred of children". With the exception of a couple of posts, the majority of people in this post without children who don't want children seemed to be complaining about the fact that there wasn't simply an "I don't want kids" option. Many people expressed this eloquently and were not bashing kids or the people who choose to have them.
This is not an easy society in which to be childfree. You are often judged by others and it is terrible because we aren't doing anything wrong and our decision to not have children doesn't hurt anybody. I disagree with Holly above because I don't think that living your life for yourself (and your significant other, your friends, your family, your neighbors, your co-workers, your career, your passions, your religion, etc.) is selfish. Childfree people have made a choice to live a certain way, that doesn't mean they are selfish people.
This kind of judgment is painful and I bet many people who have kids or want kids don't even realize they are being so critical. Like eeeck pointed out, people can be very insensitive and treat you like you are somehow flawed or incomplete without children.
I don't have any problem with a kids-themed month. Most of the products probably won't interest me but I'll read what I want and skip the rest. I hope that people with kids in their lives will benefit from the posts this month. Parents are certainly entitled to good design.

eeeeck, maybe you misunderstood me? i actually do want kids. in fact, if i were more financially secure, i would get to the bun, oven, etc. postehaste. even though i am a lesbian, and like p2, curtis, jimkk, etc most people in this country would not necessarily like to see that happen. kinda makes me want it more, actually -- i have a womb, and i'll use it if i want to! i feel extremely emotionally ready for kids. this is probably because i'm the oldest of a largish brood, have babysat pretty much ever since i can remember, was a nanny during college, etc.

i see eye to eye COMPLETELY with the childfree camp, actually. i have witnessed and fully understand the assumptions (especially for women) that we will all eventually get broody. and it sucks. and i think everyone should be fully within their rights to choose whether to reproduce or not, and how to go about that, and what their reasoning for that should be. but. and this is a big but, i get very easily annoyed at the antics and carryings on of childfree people whenever the subject of children comes up. ok, we get it, you don't plan to have children. can we please move on now? i dislike tomatoes, but i don't feel the need to regale everyone in earshot every time i pass through the produce aisle at the supermarket.

it sort of reminds me of the way certain people went vegetarian in high school and college. and they felt the need to tell everyone about it all the time, peruse restaurant menus in this incredibly self-conscious and almost martyred way, flounce noisily over to the faux meat aisle in the supermarket, etc. i eat meat extremely rarely myself, but it was just like, seriously, i do not care that much about the contents of your digestive tract.

Leta,
-"No thnaks!"
-Keep them away from me and I'll be happy. I'd rather have a dog any day.
-There should be a "Don't really like kids" type option.
-don't want 'em.
Is that clear enough for you.

This thread is worrisome to me.
Clearly, the questions in this survey should have included an option for "no kids, and won't be having them." But not just because some people don't want kids (a choice I completely respect). But because many women want children very much but do not want to have them alone.
Just look at the stats of marriageable men vs. women in New York City, and you'll see that there are many single women who will not be having children -- not by choice, but by circumstance.

I told myself to stop participating in reading posts. Today, I went against my rule and now I am hot and annoyed. I like AT better when I do not read people comments. This is all silly to me. Anyway, all have good night. Looking forward to modern ideas for children spaces.

Leta,
These are the comments that bothered us so much:
-"No thnaks!"
-Keep them away from me and I'll be happy. I'd rather have a dog any day.
-There should be a "Don't really like kids" type option.
-don't want 'em

I think having this type of survey is pointless and troublesome.

Just mean :(

us: Nikki and VIVI

well, it seems that Maxwell has, if nothing else, gotten a taste for "who's out there this time..."

Oppo, I didn't mean to presume about whether you wanted kids. What I meant to say is that you probably haven't yet experienced the pressure around the child issues that;s pretty common when you hit my age. People do shove the issue of having kids down your throat in such a way that you often can't keep a low profile, and it can lead to a lot of defensiveness that you describe.

To continue with the analogy, if those vegetarians constantly had people waving steaks in their faces, or questioning their preference for the vegetable sides at restaurants about why they only ordered vegetables, wouldn't their attitudes be easier to understand? Or imagine that everyone assumed you were secretly dying for a nice filet and kept giving you these pitying glances, or condescending to you by saying, "Well, you wouldn't understand, you've never known what it's like to eat a great cheeseburger."

That's what it's like for a lot of us every day, and after a while, you certainly can lose perspective and get a little paranoid. And it seems like the people with kids are just as paranoid too, judging by this thread!

i'm only posting to say that yes, there is someone out here who:

1. has a toddler
2. loves design and takes great pleasure in decorating my modest home
3. is very much looking forward to this theme!
4. loathes pets (kidding... sort of)

relax, people! it's not as if nothing else will be posted/discussed! and another thing: it's so much easier to have a pristine, design-y apartment whenyou're single and childless (i remember it well, believe me). having a killer place is a real challenge when a kid comes into the picture. so bring on the good ideas!

Am I the ONLY one out there who wants to make a joke about NAMBLA?

I don't have kids, don't want kids, and aren't particularly enamoured of kids in general-- but I certainly don't mind a kid-themed month. Why not? I can always find a good gift, or hey, even something for my own home--lots of kid stuff is pretty great-lookin' (nightlights, wall pieces & whatnot).

I did recoil a little at the "love them", just b/c it's a little Hallmarky for my sensibilities. But whatever, I answered the poll, coz like everyone else, I do love a poll!

The kid-having among us who are getting bent about people saying such innocuous things as "no thanks" or "I'd rather have a dog"--I hope you don't pass on your insecurities to your children. Who gives a crap if someone else doesn't especially like, or want, what you have? I have cats, but hearing people say they don't like cats doesn't send me off wringing my hands about how Very Mean they are to not like what I consider important and precious. And nobody said "hate".

Yes, it *is* America. Chock-full of people who don't all think exactly the same way.

The blood Orange
Thanks!

For nothing ;)

I hope Oppo likes cats.

I think if the fourth option in the survey had simply said "Not planning on it," this thread would only be about half as long as it is. What people were originally pointing out before it got heated is simply that the survey assumes EVERYONE wishes they had kids ... and is worded so that those who don't, don't count. That's an awful way to be made to feel (intentionally or unintenionally) when you consider yourself part of a community. Simple observation ... not a judgement about kids.

Holy DINKs, Batman! Looks like that "Not planning" is beating out all other three options combined on the survey. That plus the comments is pretty telling - looks like the average AT reader is decidely of the "Single in the City" or DINKs demographic.

Not exactly surprised though to see that people who've chosen (generally) to live in the "Big City", NYC or otherwise, and the small living spaces that entails, are also of the type of personality who have decidedly non-child rearing priorities. Cities seem to attract that type of person, myself included.

Put another way, people who are willing to lay down some $$$ in order to get that perfect designer sofa or Midcentury Modern credenza are probably also people not as interested in having kids.

Just because I don't-- and/or can't-- have kids has no bearing whatsoever on my tolerance for a kid-themed month.

I would sooo love to design a modern, non-saccharine nursery, so I say bring it on.

And, um, not to open a can of worms, but oppoponax, lesbians have more (unlegislated) choices about having kids than do gay men.

And unrelated but for the record... a whole month of kitchens didn't do much for me. So big whoop, I read the site a little less that month. No biggie.

But I also didn't ever say "People who love kitchens suck."

I think kid month would be helpful for many people. So I vote yes.

I don't have kids, though. I fall into the category which is not represented above: "eventually, but not now".

This thread is fascinating. Who was it above that said that they don't like to read the comments ppl make on AT? That's practically my favorite part of AT!

Wow! I'm with Vivi on this one...the disdain and dislike of children in these posts is pretty overwhelming! (here's another comment for your list Vivi: "other kids... generally, brats.")

The reason these posts are so skewed, despite the poll results, is that those of us with kids don't often have the time to spend posting.

Maxwell, count me in as another one who actually looks forward to a kid design month.

And for Mathilda and all of you out there who are looking for a source for kid's design (no Netto shots, I promise!) that is non-sacharine and doesn't break the bank, check out the 2 books by Judith Wilson -- "Children's Spaces from 0 to 10" and "Babies' Rooms from 0 to 3". Really great ideas - mostly frugal and funky.

opoponax--
re: "even though i am a lesbian, and like p2, curtis, jimkk, etc most people in this country would not necessarily like to see that happen."

Did you maybe leave out a word there?

Eeeeck,

Trust me, vegetarians get lots of people telling them that they are missing out. And if they explain their opinions, they get labeled as preachy. I'm just don't think that the veggie analogy works.

And Eeeck, I'm also in my late 30s and haven't had any friend ever volunteer me for babysitting, and I haven't gotten any comments like the ones you get. I find this poll so interesting because it shows that there are very different attitudes even within the same city. If I said I didn't want a baby, I would only have one friend who would say anything, and she would just say that my husband and I would make great parents. (I chalk that up to her culture more than anything else, though). Even my mother wouldn't say anything!

And I must not be reading carefully enough tonight, but I'm missing the "hatred" of kids here...

How about "kind of hoping for one but not really planning on it, on account of I'm single, and with every passing year it's looking less likely that I'll ever have a kid, and - hey, Maxwell, you kind of hit a nerve, but I'd be happy to see more kid-related design stuff on AT"?

Count me in!

How about the "no thanks, my childhood was bad enough" option, or the "cutting down on excessive consumption and landfill waste" option. I'd go with either.

CHILDFREE BY CHOICE here.

And the ONLY PEOPLE who used "HATE" were Opopomax drawing first blood (wow...there's a shocker); Nina P noted that not wanting kids is not saying you "hate" kids; I think Oppopomax brought up hate of kids again; Fiona used "hate" in relation to meat; VIVI used "HATE"; Jen PDX used 'hate' in reference to it being very un-Maxwell like; Leta wasn't sure what "hatred of children" Vivi was referring to; and Opopomax then went on her rant comparing the childfree choice to her not liking tomatoes, let's move on. etc.

Oh and then Vivi and Nikki seems to think if you are pretty clear that you don't want kids, quoting 4 posts out of over 100, you must HATE kids.

I do not want kids. I do not HATE kids. I do however, understand the tremendous responsibility having kids requires. In fact, I APPLAUD EVERYONE WHO ACKNOWLEDGES they DON'T LOVE KIDS?

Know why?

CAUSE THERE'S NOTHING WORSE THAN SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T REALLY WANT KIDS BUT FEELS THAT THEY'RE SUPPOSE TO WANT KIDS SO THEY HAVE KIDS!

For to love of GOD FOLKS! I may not go ooooowwwwwwwww to the sight of every baby, child I meet, but I sure as hell know enough to step up and ENCOURAGE people to be clear on how they feel about HAVING KIDS.

Sorry, I've mentored too many inner-city kids who's mothers/fathers thought they were suppose to really want kids and didn't EVER really take the time to realize what that meant.

And I've seen the hell of teenagers in the suburbs who have so little self respect for themselves or anyone else cause their parents would rather give them money than give them time, or be the bad guy and have to set limits. They think parenting is suppose to be a freakin' popularity contest.

So sorry if I APPLAUD people who realize they dont' have the patience for a child and are better suited for a dog.

And i have to ask those who are UP IN ARMS over people being honest about how they feel and don't want to succumb to the societal pressures of having to have/love children...wow, you may want to look at your reaction and really see if you're really that threatened by people being honest about their choice for not having kids. Does it diminish yours?

Now...off of my lame-ass soap box.

As for the kids design month...Good design is GOOD design, no matter where it comes from or what it's form. Not that everyone needs to agree with everything, but it's always beneficial to broaden ones horizons and explore different avenues. You never know what might spark your imagination, even if the genisus comes from kids design.

Also, I'm assuming, like pet month, not EVERY post will be about kids stuff.

Shari wrote:
CHILDFREE BY CHOICE here.

And the ONLY PEOPLE who used "HATE" were Opopomax drawing first blood (wow...there's a shocker); Nina P noted that not wanting kids is not saying you "hate" kids; I think Oppopomax brought up hate of kids again; Fiona used "hate" in relation to meat; VIVI used "HATE"; Jen PDX used 'hate' in reference to it being very un-Maxwell like; Leta wasn't sure what "hatred of children" Vivi was referring to; and Opopomax then went on her rant comparing the childfree choice to her not liking tomatoes, let's move on. etc.

Oh and then Vivi and Nikki seems to think if you are pretty clear that you don't want kids, quoting 4 posts out of over 100, you must HATE kids.CHILDFREE BY CHOICE here.


Shari,
What's up with your reading comprehension and the incorrect overview. I think you need to read just a tad bit more. It was very overwhelming for me in reading the opinions of how people viewed kids. (It was very bothersome to me) That's all

When responding to Leta, I just simply gathered the comments that bothered me so much.

Again from you Shari:
"Oh and then Vivi and Nikki seems to think if you are pretty clear that you don't want kids, quoting 4 posts out of over 100, you must HATE kids".

Again wrong...just posted for Leta the comments(people hating kids) that disturbed me because she did not get where I was coming from.
You know this is a dead horse. This thread is going down the hole. Still excited about the upcoming modern children ideas. Yeah!

Ahh parenting – the great divide?

Lordie – everyone’s got his or her knickers in a twist!!! From my perspective, the point of the poll was to get a gauge on those of us here who are parents or planning to become parents. Every poll can’t please everyone or provide options. Take what you can get and leave what you don’t want. This is not the domain of any one group or demographic. Where does it say that you can’t be aspirational? Whether it’s expanding your family or space? What’s the cut off point – Single/coupled/kids/no kids? Or studio/one-br/1 & ½ br/loft/brownstone? And I’m not big on any kind of theme – but there is always some idea that I can repurpose to suit my needs. For instance, pet owners are a great resource for advice on the right kind of stain resistant fabrics for your furniture, and good cleaning products. Open your minds to the possibilities.

Yes, kids aren't for everyone but if you want to - I say go it! We’ve got 1 kid - love her - thought about #2 but nixed the idea; "the bubbler" is exhausting enough as it is. From the start we both knew we wanted to be fathers (I'm papa and he's dada); our daughter who's now 2yrs & 8 months old, was born in Philly and as of 2004 the law there changed to allow same sex couples to adopt at the same time, as opposed to one adopting first and then the other doing a second adoption as it is here in NY. It’s hard to believe that PA is further ahead than NY in this. So if any of you gay boys out there are thinking about this, I’d be happy to tell you about open adoptions.

I remember getting pretty pissed when we first started exploring our options, how easy it was for straight people, many of whom have no right to inflict themselves on children, (not to be crass) can roll over and make a kid without a bloody committee examining every aspect of their lives. We wanted to be parents because that’s what we wanted…there certainly was/is no societal pressure out there saying that we should. Actually, now that I think about it that’s not quite true. We’ve been together for 10 years and celebrated our 7th wedding anniversary yesterday, and I do recall that quite a few people asked us back then if we were going to try and have children, but not because it was expected but because they thought we would make great parents.

I'd say that more than 50% of this blogs content may be geared to single people, but you don't hear us parents screaming about it! Incidentally, the Offi chalkboard kids table makes a great champagne chiller – if you can afford it!

One bit of design advice for new parents - be careful that you're designing that nursery for your child and not for you!! Go neutral. I whipped up an amazing African savannah mural with a day and night sky, glow in the dark stars and images of Takashi Murakami toadstools blown up and mounted on foam-core boards to add a 3D effect. But later realized that it was all for me and in no way reflected anything about my child or my partner for that matter. Now a year and 3 months later in our new house, her room is still decorators white, no themes, just functional, affordable furniture that can stand up to the rigors of a toddler, won’t show up in a design mag or toys r’ us. However, I have saved images of the store Bon Point, that Max & Co visited in Paris and hope to some day recreate that atmosphere for her if she wants/likes it!

So Maxwell, we suffocated last year, looks like we’re drowning this year – 2007???

"people who've chosen (generally) to live in the "Big City", NYC or otherwise, and the small living spaces that entails, are also of the type of personality who have decidedly non-child rearing priorities"

perhaps it is more the case that big cities are unaffordable for many families, whatever their design sensibilities? having an extra bedroom, or even just a small amount of extra space for the kid, along with the other expenses that pile up, can simply break the bank. when i was single, i could live anywhere, and i didn't care about my lack of health insurance etc.. believe me, i would LOVE to raise my kid in the big city! for now i'm settling for a middle-sized city (austin).

Sorry, VIVI, but I think the reading comprehension points go to Shari for this round.

wasn't going to add to the ridic number of posters here, but someone said "now we know who's out there" and decided to add my 2 cents. i can see why people get touchy about the assumption that they want children even if they don't plan on having any. fraught with issues! but i also think that people without children will get something out of this month. i don't live in an apartment in NY and i love this site and i KNOW i'm not the only one! great design ideas are just that. maybe you won't use them in the way they are intended or maybe not everything is usable for you at all, but you can appreciate it. i have plenty of closets but i love to see people's storage ideas! (full disclosure, i did just have a baby in july and i am desparate for great design that is baby friendly, but i think baby friendly design can still be inspiring.)

Totally psyched for kids' month! Been waiting for it since last year. In fact, I'd love it if AT had a spin-off kid-centric website. Agree with happilyever--how do we make the whole pad kid friendly and not look horrible?

Despite liking only a few specific children, none of whom I intend to produce myself, may I suggest that the theme stray far enough from baby-babies to get into toys for interesting kids in design?

There are a lot of preschool-friendly dollhouses out there, for instance, that aren't gender-slanted in a "pink is for GIRLS! have some RUFFLES!" way. (I will now pause to be uselessly sentimental about past toys, like my childhood Design Blocks.)

Bravo Neal. Well said. Your perspective on the point of the poll was mine also and everything else you wrote was very well put.

I must say though that I did find this thread elightening (after finding the need for poll answering and bitching about not being able to answer the poll funny) especially hearing anita's and eeeck's POV because, similar to what Fiona was takling about, the kind of comments and actions that eeeck experienced were not something that I was aware of and this is with a wife, sisters and women friends in their 30's (with and wihout childrem, with and without partners) with whom I have close relationships and where we do talk about themes such as this.

As long as this is going to be an open thread about society's view on childfree women, anyone care to wade in about women who do want children but cannot due to many different reasons? There are some heart wrenchingly sad accounts of how society treats them, how they are judged, how they feel about not being able to fulfill something that they feel should be inately and naturally "theirs" (sorry my words fail me right now). Surely their POV is just as valid and worth airing as the childfree?

Thoughts: never say never. If you're under 30 and spouting "I never want kids," come back here in 10 years and let's see if your answer has changed. I know mine did.

Otherwise, it's Maxwell's blog and he can write about whatever he damn well wants. Too bad for you if you don't want to sit through a month of kid space ideas. It's something that interests him now at this point in his life. If you don't like it, start your own blog.

Toys! Great idea, Wende. Hard to think about designing with children in mind and *not* having toys in the mix. Add 'em to the kid-themed month.

[and thanks to all those who pointed out that good design is good design -- kid-themed, pet-themed, kitchen-themed, whatEHvah.]

Just saying and this is it for me on the subject. My choice due to personal reasons is to be kid free and even when I do get married...just don't have a desire to raise a child(ren). I'm not going to condone anyone in this forum for their choice of wanting kids or not, etc.

Otherwise, I don't understand what all the debate is about with the kid poll and kid month. I'm an avid AT reader so if I got through the smallest, coolest contest, pet month and now kid month (thinking there were others). I'll do what I always do skim through it and read what I find interesting. I think others should do the same and stop complaining.

jamie pup -

I don't think this is the place for heartwrenchingly sad accounts about how society treats childfree women, and personally I've never felt parenthood should be innately and naturally "mine" or anyone's, but it's nice to see a straight male American parent (I presume a bit) wonder about this. (And if you were being ironic, well, I'm going to respond anyway.) A lesbian friend of mine once said there's nothing more threatening to the fabric of American society than a single straight woman. That seems to me a wild exaggeration, given how poorly gays are treated in this country, but reading that poll did make me feel a bit like I feel when I hear politicians yammer about "family values." As in: wow, my existence as a single person without children is really beyond that person's imagination. I don't (usually) mind living beyond the imagination of most US politicians, and much of the US for that matter, but it's not nice to feel that I live beyond the imagination of Maxwell, who seems to me a highly imaginative, likeable, and intelligent guy.

Clearly a lot of people here are childfree by choice. Some may have tried to have kids but couldn't. I bet no one here has ever miscarried/mourned the loss of, say, a kitchen - just to suggest a bit of what might make this topic so sensitive. Me, I'd love to have a kid - and a partner, too. I'd love also to have a dog, a dining room, and a study, among other things. But until such time as any of that happens and I become an Approved Member of American Society (and I'm very aware this may never happen), I'd be happy to see more kid-design-related posts on AT, and not only because I give a lot of gifts to the kids I do know and love.

I look forward to a wedding poll: "Love weddings, but not planning on one since I can't find a goddamn mate!"

Thank you for your response viola.

I am a straight male Brit who has lived in nyc for the last 12 years but I still find some disconnect with certain aspects of American culture - nothing too serious or worth discussing here though.

However, to address what you wrote: I was not being ironic in one case but did find irony in another. I was serious in that there are many different view points related to what is being discussed that are not being aired so we are getting a fairly narrow view of the issues.

The irony that I find is that the childfree by choice POV (and "by choice" is what was missing in my last sentence of my last post BTW) seems to either be the only POV worthy of being put forward when it comes to voicing opinion on the no children choice in the poll (that darned appeal of the poll again!) or the only one that has very vocal and strong minded posters.

I'm not expressing it very well but it boils down to what seems to be a contention that only the childfree by choice ppl have a legitimate reason to complain about how society views them whereas I think many other ppl do when it comes to being childless.

Yes, that is a generalization that ignores many posts (but those posts I have addressed) but it does come across very strongly in this thread.

Since AT seems to want to parse out certain populations that have particular design needs, what about these as well?

1)Good design for the disabled
2)Eldery parents who move in with their adult children (there was a recent article on this in the NYT Home section)

Surely these present special (good) design challenges, particularly in a small space (though I don't want to imagine someone living with their Mom in a studio)

Jamie Pup, a Brit! As it happens I grew up half in your country and half in NY, but that's neither here nor there. (And besides, I live in LA.)

I agree, the childfree by choice folks do seem more vocal than those childfree against their will, but I haven't noticed anyone contending that they have more of a right to comment. Public airings of personal tragedies and disappointments are not so socially acceptable, perhaps, among AT readers, and these things can be more difficult to acknowledge, to oneself and to others, even anonymously on the web. I'm sort of in both camps - clearly I've made choices that have kept me childless, like that time I left that boyfriend who wanted to get married and have kids. I'm glad about each choice I've made so far, but I do wish there were other options (I mean in life, not just on that poll).

Ah, I get it: Apartment ... Therapy! I feel so much better now.

hm. just had a thought about the overwhelming # of 'no thanks' responses.

i wonder how much of it has to do with age? i think it's probably a lot easier to be confident that you don't want kids when you're older and have really had the oppurtunity to look that in the face. it probably gets easier and easier to know the closer you get to post-childbearing age.

similarly, it probably gets easier and easier to make a commitment to design the older one gets. as people pay off student loans and establish themselves in a career, they're more able to afford big ticket items. there's also a certain degree of settling down that is required. i'd never retile the bathroom of any apartment because i'm inevitably going to move in a couple years anyway. what's the point in buying a lot of cool furniture when i could move across the country or spend a year abroad?

as we get older, we start to develop a lifestyle that lends it self more toward nesting (esp. nesting in high style). maybe that point coincides with the point at which one is able to state, definitively, that they do not want children.

(which is NOT, btw, to say that younger people can't decide they don't want kids, or nest. i'm just making a generalization that might explain the numbers).

Just wanted to chime in that this would be very welcome. Have 2 kids under 5 in a small 2 bedroom so any ideas would be wonderful...

Judging from the constant calls for low-cost decorating ideas, I doubt we're all affluent 40-somethings.

It seems more likely that relatively few middle-class people commit to small-space urban living if they see themselves as being on the baby-producing track. It's so much cheaper to buy a larger house in the far 'burbs, plus the whole family applauds you for doing it.

So the people who have kids in small city apartments are especially strongly committed to their lifestyle choices but a minority among people living that life. (If the husband and I had inadvertantly reproduced, I'd be a total ideologue about how it is NOT necessary to have a 4-bedroom + family-room house in Podunk Falls in order to have a happy child.)

I for one am a 40+ middle class DINK

I'm looking forward to the month - supporting people who can live in small urban spaces with their kids, without all the crap/SUVs/mcMansions taking over as a good thing. Philosophically, politically, ecologically.

For me, it's not about loving OR hating kids. I'm pretty much ambivalent, and I doubt great parenting would result from having kids just because it's expected of me.

(Visiting my four-year-old cousin from time to time suffices just fine.)

For all you poll loving childfree ppl out there - here is your perfect poll:
http://chicago.apartmenttherapy.com/chicago/surveys/kids-012215#comments

Click away!

Vivi, I went back and rered the posts.

I think my reading comprehension is just fine. And i think you missed my point. People who are clear about not wanting kids do not mean that they HATE kids. Also, I am a BIG propoent (if you didn't notice from my overly annoying soap box) of people being very clear about wanting vs. not wanting kids.

The hated for the wee ones is not what I'm reading when I reread these posts. I think I read a response from folks who felt they weren't given a voice in the poll. (I personally had a feeling of being slapped in the face a bit by the poll choices, but I know where that response was coming from).

That said, I think ANYTHING beingcovered for month except for INCREDIBLY CHEAP AND ORIGINAL BRILLIANT DESIGN NO ONE ELSE WILL HAVE for an entire month, people would probably complain about. It tends to be the a nature of folks. (NOT EVERYONE...but lots of folks).

Once again, for the record, I don' t have a problem with a full month of kid design. Though now I realize I do have some ambiguity over it. Part of me fears it'll be the BABY GAP syndome. I kind of hate the Baby Gap because it seem to me the emphasis is making baby's dress like little adults...and i think kids should be able to go through the joys of being kids, not having everything match just so, enjoiying primary colors, etc. BESIDES...how much is being spent for something they're not going to wear in 3 to 6 months.

So I'm hoping this is going to be more like Jess' post...and would LOVE to see design that grows with kids. Cause there just seems to be something wrong with spending several grand for something that's going to be used for only over a year or two.

jamie pup, you're the best.

Ditto for the 'No thanks' option. Why assume that everyone wants kids? Are the implications that everyone aspires to having children? Cultural programming at its finest.

I don't call myself childless-by-choice or childfree, because reproduction doesn't really cross my mind from one day to the next.

It's kind of like so many people define themselves by their family choices and not who THEY are.

That said, if there are child-focused design sections, I'll probably skip them, just as I skipped the pet designs for cats, since we have a dog. (But we don't think of ourselves as catfree or catless by choice. It's not that we don't LOVE cats. I wanted a cat when I was a little girl, but now I think they're too much work.)

Okay, that last line was a stretch.

What about focusing on this as a theme that is kid-friendly but appeals to adults as well? I was specifically thinking of how it could be cool to show how people have incorporated playful design into their homes, whether intented for kids adults or both. There is certainly a desire for parents to provide a playspace within the home that is well-designed, but I think this is something that adults might want as well. It could be neat to see some of the adult ideas for "play areas" at home - I'm thinking crafting areas, poker room, rock-climbing wall etc. It's certainly a challenge to have a play space for adult or child in a small apartment.

Also like Wende's idea for good toys that inspire and teach design to kids. There are children's books by some great designers that I actually enjoy reading on my own.

Finally, it seems that some comments have alluded to AT not knowing their demographic. But as the poll results stand right now, there is a pretty balanced ratio of people with or wanting kids (46%) to those not wanting kids (54%).

Valerie, why the hatred of cats?

KDDING! Awesome post, and I couldn't agree more. I'm birdless by choice. I'm childless by choice as well. In fact, I'm 1/2 a DINK. Oh god - does that make me a SINK?

Shari brings up a good point too. I totally respect people who know they want kids and have them. Hell, I wish kids were only born into families that wanted them. I also totally respect people who don't want kids and choose not to have any. Patrick, on the other hand, reminds me of one aspect of parenthood that definitely bothers me. I think it's crap that any idiot can get pregnant/get someone else pregnant, and it's supposedly a blessing. But a gay couple who might make the world's most loving home for an unwanted child can't adopt? Absolute crap.

I have no problem with a month of kid design though. I'm really just commenting on the poll and this thread. Kid-design doesn't interest me, but there's nothing wrong with that.

P.S. Superb post Karina! If things like that were to show up on AT this month, I might be more interested than I'd expected!

I am 53 now and VERY GLAD I decided to not have kids. Kids are rude because their parents are rude by allowing the kids be rude! Today's parents think only about themselves and their kids. I hate it when I can't read or sleep on a plane, enjoy a meal out with my husband or even find peace in church because of kids. I'm a person too and wish to enjoy my life too & people with kids don't care. Have you ever noticed they no longer build churches with cry-baby rooms? McDonald's has the right idea with their playrooms.

Like I don't get ENOUGH child centric stuff on a daily basis? There are so many places already on the net that are chock full of stuff for kids. Do what you want but I have been checking the site less since the announcement of the kiddie month idea. And , yeah, I am childfree , it was my choice, no body pays taxes to support my choice, by remaining childfree I have had to learn to care for myself because there just AINT no safety net or handouts for a childfree person. If I do not want to look at oogie woo cute stuff for kids that I certainly have no interest in, then I don't gotta!

I voted the last option, and I wouldn'
t mind seeing some kid-centered design, because *everyone* I know has kids. Literally.

But my husband and I are bookending the 30's, and we have enough on our hands with a dog and cat, kids just aren't in the plan, and never have been. I don't hate them, I don't go mushy over the sight of them, it's just another option of many options.

I don't label other people with kids breeders, I don't label myself as childfree or childless or anything. And kids are like all other people: take them on an individual basis. There are individuals I loathe, for sure, and there are individuals I adore. Same goes for kids.